Is Spyro a crazed killer? (SPOILERS)

Razz · Feb 02, 2008 6:45 AM

(This is mostly taken from DarkSpyro, where this train of thought started, but I would really like to see if there is a resolution to this issue. So far, no one has given any good answers.)

I smell a plot hole.

Me: What I'm still confused on is why Spyro was so upset about killing Gaul when he's never been phased by killing anything else? He technically killed Skabb and saw Sparx kill one of his birds, and he's killed dozens of speaking, sentient apes. He also technically killed Cynder, but she came back, so I guess that was okay. I'm just confused about why Gaul was the tipping point. Stress, maybe? *scratches head*

(The response to this was that Spyro was upset because he wasn't in control of his actions and that the Dark Master had hold of him at the time.)

Me: But that would imply that Spyro doesn't care if he kills someone so long as he himself is in control of the action... That's creepy. o.O

(This sparked some discussion that it was the way in which the killing was done that upset Spyro, which still doesn't really make the situation any better. Spyro's done worse than turn a mandrill to stone. We also discussed the idea that Skabb might still be alive.)

Me: Hmmm, interesting thoughts on Skabb. I hadn't figured he'd survived that fall, but he might have. I mean, the high fall didn't kill Spyro, so why should it have killed Skabb? And the smart bird lived, at least, so he still has his ambulatory brain. big_smile

But I still smell a plot hole. I shall break things down by enemies.

Ape hordes and pirates: It's likely Spyro doesn't feel too bad about these guys because it's literally a matter of survival. He knows some of these guys are sentient (one of them talked with Ignitus before the old guy killed him). I have this feeling that Ignitus might have made some excuse (namely that the apes aren't real living things anymore, they are just entities composed of crystal and not really alive, therefor it's okay to kill them and/or since they're minions of the Dark Master they're just fodder and killing them is okay).

Arborik, Stone Centinel, Ice King, etc.: These are pretty much non-sentient entities. They don't speak and are really just inanimate objects brought to life by magic. Spyro doesn't seem to understand religion and the Atlawa didn't mind when he killed their god, so he probably doesn't loose much sleep over them.

Dark Cynder: He totally killed her but, again, this was a matter of survival thing. And, of course, she came back to life, so it was all good.

The Conductor: An ape who held a conversation with Spyro. I'm sure he would've felt bad if he'd had time to think about it, but being attacked by a freaking scary she-dragon will drive most things out of your mind. big_smile Also, survival. The Conductor was totally going to run him down with that train, and he'd already done mean things to the Manweersmalls, so Spyro probably figures he deserved it (though that's a pretty nasty thing to think).

Skabb and Sniff: This is where things start to get muddy. He just stood there and watched Skabb fall presumably to his death. He also watched his brother fatally injure Sniff. Why didn't either of these bother him? Stress? PTSD?

Gaul: So, after all of this, he cares that he killed Gaul. Why? He's killed hundreds of things already. Gaul is as much a servant of the Dark Master as Dark Cynder was and he had no remorse over killing her or any other servant of darkness. What was it that made him shut down over Gaul? He says "I'm sorry. I couldn't stop...", implying that he feels bad because he couldn't stop himself from killing the Ape King, but if he hadn't, Gaul would have killed him. It's a survival issue, but it's gotten to Spyro and I really want to know why. Is he just feeling remorse for the purely selfish, sociopathic reason that he wasn't in control of his actions at the time, even though the results would have been the same whether he was in control or not?

See, this is why I get so frustrated when games make everything black and white. I hate the idea that an entire race or species is supposed to be evil (Orcs, rats, apes, etc). It's fictional racism and stereotyping and it drives me nuts. It's also very unrealistic and promotes the notion that it's easy to tell wrong from right when, in reality, it isn't.

Me: (responding to a comment that Spyro would never kill anything and that the apes in the game aren't actually dead, just "defeated", whatever that means) How is groaning and falling into death throes, then vanishing into your base elements (gems) not dying? o.O And I'm pretty sure Sniff(?) was dead. That was one serious seizure. As for the Conductor...he jumped off the train...into the collapsing, burning, about-to-erupt volcano. He didn't have wings. I don't think he made it. o.o

I'm not saying Spyro is doing these things out of malice. He seems pretty innocent about most of it, really. Heck, it's possible he doesn't even know what's going on (maybe the elders told him a whole bunch of crazy stories to spare his innocence). But he seems too smart to not realize what's happening, and he was raised by small prey animals who wouldn't skimp on the harshness of life.

So far, no one has yet explained why the death of Gaul would matter after Spyro's killed so many other things knowingly and the only reason I can see (the one the games imply) is that there's something off about Spyro himself.

It's either that or this is one HUGE plot hole. I'm betting it's really the plot hole, but it'd still be nice to get a definitive answer.

So, who wants to tackle this monster? big_smile

Volteer32 · Feb 02, 2008 9:33 AM

I for one don't think he is.

And Sparx didn't kill one of the birds he just knocked it out that's all.

Well with the Conductor he defeated him out of self defence, you could even say that of the Ice King, that tree like thing on Tall Plains, and the Electric King in Cynder's level.

As for Gaul, well if you saw one ape coming at you with two humongous swords, and packing a mean punch at that, plus a laser in his eye - he deserved what he got for kidnapping Cynder.

ratchet · Feb 02, 2008 11:23 AM

I dont think so, All the enemys are either too evil to care about, there not living things or they're created by crystal.
Exaculy the same for original spyro.

minredd · Feb 02, 2008 3:41 PM

EricChristianOlsenFanatic · Feb 02, 2008 6:48 PM

I don't think Spyro was a killer cause Gaul deserved it after stealing Cynder's egg and trying to take Spyro's. I hated the ending cause it was very sad and made me cry.

:'(

Volteer32 · Feb 02, 2008 8:33 PM

You can only wonder what has happened to the likes of the Guardians, you know Volteer, Cyril, Terrador and Ignitus.

DragonPrincess · Feb 02, 2008 8:53 PM

O.O O.O O.O o_O

Razz · Feb 02, 2008 10:50 PM

Okay, no one actually read my post. Oiy. *sigh; eye roll* This isn't about opinion or whether these things deserve to die or not (which, really, is a judgment that should never be made or justified; any soldier will tell you it's not that the enemy deserves death, it's because it's either you or him).

For most of the enemies, it was indeed a matter of survival for Spyro. They attacked, he had no choice but to defend himself and they were attacking with the intent to kill and wouldn't stop unless he killed them. Where I see the problem is that he is never bothered by this until the fight with Gaul. The fact that he isn't bothered before this point is somewhat disturbing, given his age, but it's even worse what that scene implies he is bothered about.

What I picked up from the scene after watching it is that Spyro is upset that he couldn't control himself when he killed Gaul, even though he would likely have killed him regardless. This is suggesting that Spyro doesn't care if he kills people, so long as he is in control at the time. And that's not really right.

minredd · Feb 03, 2008 1:39 AM

What I thought about that cutscene, when he said "I'm sorry. I couldn't stop." I thought he meant to Cynder and Sparx. He almost attacked them, and very well could have killed his(sorta)brother or love interest. I think Spyro meant he's afraid he will hurt them because he almost did. That's why he lost it, because he could have hurt two innocent creatures who he cared for deeply.

...Thats all I got. And I read all of your post ^^

Razz · Feb 03, 2008 1:44 AM

That makes good sense, minredd. smile Granted, it implies even more that Spyro doesn't care about the creatures he kills, but that's practically a video game staple that has only recently been addressed.

Here's a good comment from Zerodius on DarkSpyro about the matter:

"The reason why killing Gaul bothered Spyro?

"The real reason, in my opinion, is not in the act itself. Spyro has clearly been developed to be able to act as a warrior and thus, kill in cold blood. But for him, it's either an act to insure his own survival or to uphold his ideals.

"... so how is the situation with Gaul any different?

"It's not Gaul but rather himself that scared him.

"Upon being exposed to the Soul Beam, Spyro transformed into Dark Spyro, a perfect although younger recreation of the Dark Master. The same vile, unholy power coursed his veins and his anger was totally running out of control, causing him to go beserk.

"It's not killing Gaul that traumatised him... but rather his own state.

"He didn't just kill him like he did with the others. He totally destroyed him in a relatively long and horrible way... and not out of the will to survive or win against evil. No, he did it because that he was totally beserk and that he wanted to kill, to make him suffer, to taste blood.

"This is why Spyro wished to end it all, to die in the destruction of the Well of Souls: because that he had become the same as his enemy ; a blood-thirsty monster. He realized who and what he truly was and what he could become if things went unchecked.

"It was ultimately because of Cynder and Sparx that he didn't indirectly commit suicide."

minredd · Feb 03, 2008 1:50 AM

That makes a lot of sense. It wasn't Gaul, but himself. Wouldn't you be afraid if you became some invincible blood-thirsty monster without any will? He kept hearing how terrible and evil and horrific the Dark Master was and he became the exact same thing. He was afraid of turning evil and he didn't want anyone to be hurt so he wanted to be left to die.

That makes perfect sense. He was afraid of what he had become, and what he might've done.

Lancer232 · Feb 03, 2008 1:57 AM

Yea, him attacking the baddies when they attacked was most likely from self-defense. And the Gaul part, I'm sure the 1st part was self-defense...yet the 2nd one was no control pure bloodlust. And the part he said "I can't" and "I'm sorry" in the end was probably like minredd said him not having control of himself and was about to attack his very friends. And you never know, he may feel sorry when he kills the enemies on the inside.

Now...I also have another explanation for his "crazed killerness", it may be just a dragon's natural instinct and such. We do know that dragons are extremely ferocious and powerful creatures, and yes they can be peaceful at times (in my opinion...other people (not aimed at anyone on this forum, but mainly at movie makers of the BIG companies) consider dragons PURE evil...and I believe not all of them are "spawns of the devil"). It may be just Spyro's own dragon instinct that makes him kill and not worry.

minredd · Feb 03, 2008 2:38 PM

I also thought of something else. That when he was evil, just a cold blooded killer, he realized what he was doing. He learned right then what he had done and how many he had killed. He realized how many he had killed in cold blood because when he was evil he did what he always had--killed.

Volteer32 · Feb 03, 2008 3:31 PM

Ohh I get it now hence the reason why we saw Cynder crash tackle him out of the beam to snap him out of what was going on with him. You then see him look weakened as if the power that had been running through him had totally weakened him.

But still if Dark Spyro being Dark Spyro, why then did he turn on Gaul, use Convexity power and fury to annihilate him (which that scene reminds me a bit of Terminator 2 - you know with the atomic bomb blast how it turns everyone to ash and then blows them away).

My thoughts for that one - the Dark Power that he had absorbed hadn't fully possessed him yet, he recognised who Gaul was, and what he needed to do to him.

And that bit at the end when he's laying there on the ground and Cynder this time's yelling at him to get up and go - he knew then he had done something wrong, by almost attacking his two mates, and he wanted to be left alone to die in the collapse, but something from Cynder snapped him out of it, or was it what the Chronicler said to him.

I can't wait for the next game to come out!!

abbey1053 · Feb 03, 2008 5:22 PM

He was thinking of a way to save his friends and thats what snapped him out of it.

Sheita · Feb 11, 2008 9:59 PM

Hmm-- Maybe it isen't that he says "I couldn't stop" to. Maybe his meaning the couldn't stop killing. If you notice very closely, you will see he gives Cynder the "My next prey" look just before the game switches over to movie. So maybe he couldn't stop the temptation (if it is a temptation) of killing.

Razz · Feb 11, 2008 10:43 PM

That seems to be the general consensus. He wasn't upset that he killed Gaul, he was upset that he was tempted to kill Sparx and Cynder. Granted, this still leaves a pretty big ethical hole to fill, but it's a hole that's been open since the beginning of video games and has rarely ever been addressed (that hole being "It's okay to kill the bad guys because they're all bad and you're supposed to agree with that because we say so").

EricChristianOlsenFanatic · Feb 16, 2008 10:29 PM

I think Spyro was sad that he tried to kill Cynder and Sparx. I'm glad he killed Gaul cause Gaul deserved what he got. The ending was sooo freaking sad and everytime I hear the ending song I cry. I can't wait for the 3rd game to come out even though I haven't played the 2nd one!

Does anyone know where you can get screencaps from both Legend of Spyro games? Razz found a whole bunch for me, but I was wondering if there are any more out there?

Thanks,

Justin Long Fanatic :'(

Razz · Feb 17, 2008 1:29 AM

Aww, now that's just mean. Gaul said he and the other apes had suffered under the dragons, which implies that he isn't just trying to get revenge for no good reason.

power to the people · Feb 17, 2008 7:48 PM

EricChristianOlsenFanatic · Feb 17, 2008 8:29 PM

Razz,
you are actually right about Gaul not deserving what he got. I don't know I guess it just is really sucky that Gaul took Cynder's egg, but Gaul does have a right to be angry at the dragons. I wish I had the 2nd game cause then I'd understand it better.

-Justin Long Fanatic hmm

Razz · Feb 18, 2008 10:42 PM

Insomniac Spyro was kind of a punk to begin with, so it's not such a surprise that he'd grow up to be a bit violent. LoS Spyro, however, seemed to be a sweety from the start, which makes his extremely violent attacks all the more surprising. I suppose he just grew up learning that some things will try to eat you and it's kill or be killed.

As for Gaul, the only clue we have that he's not just doing all of this to be mean is this line:

"Long have we waited, long have we suffered! But soon, our master will return, and his coming shall bring forth a new age of power for the apes and we shall have our revenge!"

I'm also not fond of the idea that an entire race is evil just because of their species (or good for the same reasons). There are good and bad people in all races, and often times the most evil people do things because they think they are doing good.

Spyrofriend · Feb 18, 2008 10:45 PM

Gual was raised the dark master, abnnd created the apoes in order to get trevenge on the dragonm elders for banishing him. I suspect the Chronicler is the last living Dragon elder from that time... As for Spyro, I believe he realizes the great corrupting influence great power has. The Dark Master succumbed to it, nd if not for Cynder, he would have as well.

Razz · Feb 18, 2008 10:50 PM

The game implies that Gaul and the apes were around long before the DM. I like to think that this was more a case of the DM abusing and lying to the apes from the start (and also killing what was left of their race, save for Gaul, whom he is manipulating). The dragons aren't perfect (I daresay they're a bit arrogant, actually). And I totally don't trust the Chronicler. He put Spyro and dozens of other people in danger, manipulating events in the entire world, and was willing to risk the lives of everyone just to get his way. Thank goodness Spyro was too pig-headed to listen to him. o.O

EricChristianOlsenFanatic · Feb 19, 2008 2:31 PM

Yeah If I had been Spyro I wouldn't have listened to the Chronicler either. Spyro had every reason to disobey him and go save Cynder and everyone else.

- Justin Long Fanatic

#1 Feb 02, 2008 6:45 AM

Is Spyro a crazed killer? (SPOILERS)

#2 Feb 02, 2008 9:33 AM

Re: Is Spyro a crazed killer? (SPOILERS)

#3 Feb 02, 2008 11:23 AM

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