Ratchet's dawn of the Dragon Discussion THread

minredd · Oct 19, 2008 1:47 PM

You can find plot holes in everything if you look. Why is it only purple dragons? Why did Spyro always save the guardian corresponding to a power he just learned? How could Spyro let himself get captured by pirates? How did Spyro fit comfortably in his little dragonfly home? Why was Cynder near the swamp near the beginning of ANB?

Some things you have to brush off for the sake of the game play. Like how in games you always just *happen* to find the tool you need right before having to use it.

Neotyguy40 · Oct 19, 2008 3:01 PM

minredd wrote:

Like how in games you always just *happen* to find the tool you need right before having to use it.

Example: Every Zelda Game... EVER

Kazoobie64 · Oct 19, 2008 3:11 PM

minredd wrote:

It was said by the makers Cynder had her gauntlets again because it helped her overcome something or other. But they said they would've made a cut scene for it but it would've been awkward.

WHAT?

Hahaha, oh God. If that's true, thank goodness they didn't put a cutscene in the end because they probably just thought the jewelry looked better on her design, and I agree with them. Trying to make a strange story about it is just like pretending there's no pink elephant in the room when everyone can see it.

ratchet wrote:

Yah, thats true, but i found it stupid the fact why the people who captured spyro and cynder put the collar around their necks, why didn't they just lock them up with the green snake things seeing they're so unbreakable.

What do you mean by this? Are you asking why Spyro and Cynder weren't locked up behind bars or something? I think it was because they were tied together on some sort of stake because they were meant to be sacrificed to that golem.

minredd wrote:

Why is it only purple dragons?

Because they wanted to make Spyro seem special, so his color would be the only reasonable choice.

Neotyguy40 · Oct 19, 2008 3:42 PM

ratchet wrote:

Face it, the Writers of TLOS are lazy and Sloppy.

Ok, we get you like the old series better...

ratchet wrote:

Yeah, but the fact that the Purple Dragon is the only one Supposed to ever have more than one ability, Otherwise Spyro or other purple Dragons could just teach others the ability, and wouldn't be as special. Dragons have to actually have the Magic inside of them first.

Only purple dragons can breath all the elements? What about apes? Gaul got fear, shadow, and wind powers at the end of the game. Are apes even suppose to have elemental breaths?

John Man 1234 · Oct 19, 2008 3:48 PM

He did when? Do you mean the second part of the boss batle against him?

Neotyguy40 · Oct 19, 2008 3:54 PM

John Man 1234 wrote:

He did when? Do you mean the second part of the boss batle against him?

Yep.

Razz · Oct 19, 2008 6:57 PM

Good lord, you guys talk a lot. o.O I'm only going to answer the stuff I can remember reading.

Mike Graham, producer and writer for the entire LoS franchise, says Cynder's wearing her jewelry again because she has confronted her past and is facing her fears by wearing it again. They didn't have time to put in how she got it back on, though, so he said "just think of it as magic".

The snake things were actually put on Spyro and Cynder to keep them prisoner. They were intended as a sacrifice to the Golem and, in some early footage, we can see that they aren't chained together but that the snakes are holding them in the center of an arena. We'll find out how they got stuck together with them when the game is out on Wednesday.

Yes, wind is an element. The Chronicler says in TEN that wind was one of the first elements that Malefor mastered. Spyro doesn't know wind yet because no one's taught it to him (you'll note that someone had to teach him how to use all of his elements before he could really do much with them). Also, on a more logical side, more than four elements would have made the game a lot harder to make. By the time DotD comes around, there's sort of a tradition about the elements and Spyro having this specific set of four (he had five in TEN, but lost the ability to control time in the end).

I'm pretty sure having the dragons get older in DotD was something that had been planned out from the start of the LoS project. I personally think it's cool and it does serve a purpose. You can think it's stupid if you want, and you can choose to insist on not using your imagination when it comes to that crystal, but I will keep disagreeing with you about it. big_smile

Kazoobie64 · Oct 19, 2008 7:28 PM

Razz wrote:

Mike Graham, producer and writer for the entire LoS franchise, says Cynder's wearing her jewelry again because she has confronted her past and is facing her fears by wearing it again. They didn't have time to put in how she got it back on, though, so he said "just think of it as magic".

This is why I think these guys are so totally ridiculous. It's bull that they have to insist on some sort of bizarre explanation for why she got them back. Can't they just say that they put them back because it looks better on her design? She has her jewelry in the crystal magically and I doubt she decided, while suspended in animation no doubt: "hey I've faced my fears while being in this crystal and I will put my jewelry back on which I will now grab from thin air. This is supposed to represent my bravery for no identifiable reason!"

Razz wrote:

I'm pretty sure having the dragons get older in DotD was something that had been planned out from the start of the LoS project. I personally think it's cool and it does serve a purpose. You can think it's stupid if you want, and you can choose to insist on not using your imagination when it comes to that crystal, but I will keep disagreeing with you about it.

My problem is not that they're suddenly older, my problem is that these guys are trying to apply it to getting older while frozen in time. It's much easier to just say it's because of re-design and that nothing's changed. The game is already very different-looking from the past two anyway. Trying to come up with something to make it work with the storyline will just make it look sloppy. I don't fall for the old "this is a realm of dragons and talking cheetahs so anything can happen" excuse, because it's lazy and played-out. I can understand excusing little details, such as in gameplay, but when you put an entire emphasis on stopping time and then try to wiggle your way out of its mechanics it just becomes unnecessarily bothersome to the player.

Razz · Oct 19, 2008 7:50 PM

Ah, but do we know for sure that Spyro stopped time? We actually don't. No one has ever stated official that that was a time fury, nor is it ever explained how one such thing works. I assumed from the start that it was a combination of all of Spyro's elemental powers and that it didn't have anything to do with time. DotD seems to confirm this because they aged inside the crystal (and grew mentally as well).

I just can't agree with you about Cynder's jewelry. I think Mike was being sincere about why she has it back on and I do think it adds a lot to her character to see that she's confronted her past and made peace with it in this manner.

Neotyguy40 · Oct 19, 2008 9:12 PM

Razz wrote:

Ah, but do we know for sure that Spyro stopped time? We actually don't. No one has ever stated official that that was a time fury, nor is it ever explained how one such thing works. I assumed from the start that it was a combination of all of Spyro's elemental powers and that it didn't have anything to do with time. DotD seems to confirm this because they aged inside the crystal (and grew mentally as well).
I just can't agree with you about Cynder's jewelry. I think Mike was being sincere about why she has it back on and I do think it adds a lot to her character to see that she's confronted her past and made peace with it in this manner.

I think I found out what happened:

Sierra said that the Chronicler taught Spyro the time ability for a specific reason, so we know that was a time thing.

But when Spyro uses Dragon Time in TEN, haven't you noticed that it only slows him down a little bit? While everything else slows down much more?

Sierra confirmed that Spyro, Cynder, and Sparx grew 3 years in the crystal, while many articles say that they were trapped in the crystal for 10 years... Understand? They were trapped in the crystal for 10 years, but Spyro's Dragon Time made their age slow a small bit, so they aged 3 years. See? Dragon Time didn't effect them as much as it effected the small space around them.

It's a bit of a long-shot, but that fits it perfectly...

Kazoobie64 · Oct 20, 2008 2:26 AM

Razz wrote:

Ah, but do we know for sure that Spyro stopped time? We actually don't. No one has ever stated official that that was a time fury, nor is it ever explained how one such thing works. I assumed from the start that it was a combination of all of Spyro's elemental powers and that it didn't have anything to do with time. DotD seems to confirm this because they aged inside the crystal (and grew mentally as well).

I'm just going by what everyone on this forum has told me, since they must know more than me being that they're way more interested in this story than I am. Everyone told me the crystal suspended them in time, so I assumed they must have gotten it from a trustworthy source.

I just can't agree with you about Cynder's jewelry. I think Mike was being sincere about why she has it back on and I do think it adds a lot to her character to see that she's confronted her past and made peace with it in this manner.

I can't think this because they aren't going to state this matter-of-factly in the game. I've come to know a writer who has to explain things outside of their writing for the benefit of the audience to be incompetent, and this is just what they're doing here. I can see "we just wanted to re-design her but for some reason we'll over-analyze it" written all over that cheesy "coming to terms" explanation. It's a very common fault a lot of writers have or still suffer. I will quote myself:

pretending there's no pink elephant in the room when everyone can see it

In any case, it doesn't make any sense anyway because when evil Cynder turned back into little Cynder, the jewelry wasn't there. Where is the time in between in which she "decided" not to wear them, and where is the time in which she came to a revelation and put them back on?

Neotyguy40 wrote:

Sierra confirmed that Spyro, Cynder, and Sparx grew 3 years in the crystal, while many articles say that they were trapped in the crystal for 10 years... Understand? They were trapped in the crystal for 10 years, but Spyro's Dragon Time made their age slow a small bit, so they aged 3 years. See? Dragon Time didn't effect them as much as it effected the small space around them.

Source for these articles?

Neotyguy40 · Oct 20, 2008 4:17 AM

Kazoobie64 wrote:

Source for these articles?

Sierra forums

ratchet · Oct 20, 2008 7:17 AM

minredd wrote:

You can find plot holes in everything if you look. Why is it only purple dragons?

Because the rare gene which makes purple dragons also makes Dragon's have more than one ability.

Why did Spyro always save the guardian corresponding to a power he just learned?

So the training stages would come convieniently, but mostly sloppy writing.

How could Spyro let himself get captured by pirates?

Cause he was young and stupid and dumb

How did Spyro fit comfortably in his little dragonfly home?

Sloppy writing. There are some theories, but thi idea was just stupid and kind of stolen from Tarzan.

Why was Cynder near the swamp near the beginning of ANB?

I have to play TLOS again, I didn't know she was.

Some things you have to brush off for the sake of the game play. Like how in games you always just *happen* to find the tool you need right before having to use it.

This really isn't a plothole, more of a "slightly too good convenience", a plothole is something that doesn't make any sense, and usually contradicts something.

But in full, TLOS is full of Plotholes and sloppy writing, thats why i was exclaiming "i have already dicovered a plothole before its release"

Only purple dragons can breath all the elements? What about apes? Gaul got fear, shadow, and wind powers at the end of the game. Are apes even suppose to have elemental breaths?

I havn't played much of TEN, and so i havn't been up to gaul yet. But can i just ask, is his powers from him or his staff?
If it is from him, theres another plothole.
And no, its Purple dragons CAN BREATH MORE THAN ONE ELEMENT, not all of them!

Mike Graham, producer and writer for the entire LoS franchise, says Cynder's wearing her jewelry again because she has confronted her past and is facing her fears by wearing it again. They didn't have time to put in how she got it back on, though, so he said "just think of it as magic".

Mike Graham sounds like hes talking to 5 year olds when he says "Just think of it as magic". Why on the heck would the Trapped in time crystal suddenly put bracelets on her?

She has her jewelry in the crystal magically and I doubt she decided, while suspended in animation no doubt: "hey I've faced my fears while being in this crystal and I will put my jewelry back on which I will now grab from thin air. This is supposed to represent my bravery for no identifiable reason!"

THank you!

The snake things were actually put on Spyro and Cynder to keep them prisoner. They were intended as a sacrifice to the Golem and, in some early footage, we can see that they aren't chained together but that the snakes are holding them in the center of an arena. We'll find out how they got stuck together with them when the game is out on Wednesday.

How are the snakes holding them in the centre of the arena? The snakes, after all, are only keeping Spyro and Cynder together, not holding them anywhere. Owell, The game might explain it.

Yes, wind is an element. The Chronicler says in TEN that wind was one of the first elements that Malefor mastered.

I never said anything against that

Spyro doesn't know wind yet because no one's taught it to him yet

He doesn't need to be taught them, he learnt his 4 himself and i'll be really surprised if Spyro has other elements up his sleeve. As i have said, I think Purple dragons can just use more than one element, rather than all of them.

Also, on a more logical side, more than four elements would have made the game a lot harder to make. By the time DotD comes around, there's sort of a tradition about the elements and Spyro having this specific set of four

I think he only has 4, and Dragon time

I'm pretty sure having the dragons get older in DotD was something that had been planned out from the start of the LoS project. I personally think it's cool and it does serve a purpose. You can think it's stupid if you want, and you can choose to insist on not using your imagination when it comes to that crystal, but I will keep disagreeing with you about it.

If Spyro paused time inside that Crystal, which we automaticly suppose he did because he had his dragon time and they are standing in exactly the same position, he shouldn't age at all.
In full, the reason i'm saying all this crap i because they should of found a better way of making Spyro grow up, instead of just saying a plothole.

but lost the ability to control time in the end.

How convenient! <_<

But when Spyro uses Dragon Time in TEN, haven't you noticed that it only slows him down a little bit? While everything else slows down much more?
Sierra confirmed that Spyro, Cynder, and Sparx grew 3 years in the crystal, while many articles say that they were trapped in the crystal for 10 years... Understand? They were trapped in the crystal for 10 years, but Spyro's Dragon Time made their age slow a small bit, so they aged 3 years. See? Dragon Time didn't effect them as much as it effected the small space around them.

Well firstly, your getting yourself mixed up, If Spyro Cynder and Sparx were using Dragon time together, the rest of the world would take LONGER to happen. Basicly, 3 seconds in Dragon time, gives 1 second in the world outside dragon time. Nevermind if you dont understand, but this would mean that for 3 years in the outside world, Spyro and Cynder would have to age 10 years, because they are experiencing life faster, not the other way round. Unless somehow Spyro can turn this the other way, in how Spyro would see the world moving extremely fast, But this would mean he hardly aged. So either way, the theory is wrong. If Spyro simply stopped time inside the crystal, without any way for him to make his own way out, that would mean he wouldn't age either.

Everyone told me the crystal suspended them in time, so I assumed they must have gotten it from a trustworthy source.

I can recall many members of Spyroforum as well as someone like Mike Graham saying that, I cant be bothered getting a quote though.

Neotyguy40 · Oct 20, 2008 7:02 PM

ratchet wrote:

So the training stages would come convieniently, but mostly sloppy writing.
Sloppy writing. There are some theories, but thi idea was just stupid and kind of stolen from Tarzan.
But in full, TLOS is full of Plotholes and sloppy writing, thats why i was exclaiming "i have already dicovered a plothole before its release"
Mike Graham sounds like hes talking to 5 year olds when he says "Just think of it as magic". Why on the heck would the Trapped in time crystal suddenly put bracelets on her?
In full, the reason i'm saying all this crap i because they should of found a better way of making Spyro grow up, instead of just saying a plothole.

Ok, ratchet... We get that you don't like TLoS, PLEASE stop ranting about it.

ratchet wrote:

Well firstly, your getting yourself mixed up, If Spyro Cynder and Sparx were using Dragon time together, the rest of the world would take LONGER to happen. Basicly, 3 seconds in Dragon time, gives 1 second in the world outside dragon time. Nevermind if you dont understand, but this would mean that for 3 years in the outside world, Spyro and Cynder would have to age 10 years, because they are experiencing life faster, not the other way round. Unless somehow Spyro can turn this the other way, in how Spyro would see the world moving extremely fast, But this would mean he hardly aged. So either way, the theory is wrong. If Spyro simply stopped time inside the crystal, without any way for him to make his own way out, that would mean he wouldn't age either.

Woops, I mean Sierra confirmed that they got trapped for 3 years.

{Please do not double post. I'm really getting sick of saying that. =P}

Kazoobie64 · Oct 20, 2008 8:10 PM

Neotyguy40 wrote:

Ok, ratchet... We get that you don't like TLoS, PLEASE stop ranting about it.

This isn't necessary. hmm He made a discussion post and wants to discuss it. I've wanted to discuss the plotholes too but I've never found the right time because all other threads are filled with fans saying positive things about the game and I don't want to be disrespectful.

He's probably a future consumer of this game, and he has the right to complain about it just like you have the right to tell your waiter and the rest of the customers eating at the restaurant that there's a fly in your soup.

And what if someone who works at Sierra ever browses a post like this? Maybe the criticism will help them improve the story?

If you think he's biased against the game just ignore his rant or at the very least add a counter if you have one.

Neotyguy40 · Oct 20, 2008 8:59 PM

Kazoobie64 wrote:

Neotyguy40 wrote:
Ok, ratchet... We get that you don't like TLoS, PLEASE stop ranting about it.
This isn't necessary. He made a discussion post and wants to discuss it. I've wanted to discuss the plotholes too but I've never found the right time because all other threads are filled with fans saying positive things about the game and I don't want to be disrespectful.
He's probably a future consumer of this game, and he has the right to complain about it just like you have the right to tell your waiter and the rest of the customers eating at the restaurant that there's a fly in your soup.
And what if someone who works at Sierra ever browses a post like this? Maybe the criticism will help them improve the story?
If you think he's biased against the game just ignore his rant or at the very least add a counter if you have one.

I want to discuss it too, but saying that the developers and story writers are sloppy and lazy in every other sentence sounds kind of pushing it.

minredd · Oct 20, 2008 9:04 PM

How are the snakes holding them in the centre of the arena? The snakes, after all, are only keeping Spyro and Cynder together, not holding them anywhere. Owell, The game might explain it.

It already WAS explained in the game. At the very first place you play in(most people have seen it, but I think you missed a lot of gameplay videos)there's a green chain-like thing coming off of the snakes and being attacked to this little totem/box/cylinder whatever. So that plot hole is resolved.

And guys, it's not just LoS. Tons of video games have plot holes. It's like fretting over how Mario grows from a mushroom or how Sonic wears shoes.

Neotyguy40 · Oct 20, 2008 9:09 PM

minredd wrote:

How are the snakes holding them in the centre of the arena? The snakes, after all, are only keeping Spyro and Cynder together, not holding them anywhere. Owell, The game might explain it.
It already WAS explained in the game. At the very first place you play in(most people have seen it, but I think you missed a lot of gameplay videos)there's a green chain-like thing coming off of the snakes and being attacked to this little totem/box/cylinder whatever. So that plot hole is resolved.
And guys, it's not just LoS. Tons of video games have plot holes. It's like fretting over how Mario grows from a mushroom or how Sonic wears shoes.

Then they need to pull the object out of the ground and own some grublins and a golem!

Stormy · Oct 20, 2008 11:48 PM

minredd wrote:

How are the snakes holding them in the centre of the arena? The snakes, after all, are only keeping Spyro and Cynder together, not holding them anywhere. Owell, The game might explain it.
It already WAS explained in the game. At the very first place you play in(most people have seen it, but I think you missed a lot of gameplay videos)there's a green chain-like thing coming off of the snakes and being attacked to this little totem/box/cylinder whatever. So that plot hole is resolved.
And guys, it's not just LoS. Tons of video games have plot holes. It's like fretting over how Mario grows from a mushroom or how Sonic wears shoes.

I see your point there, but it's a little different with TLoS because the games are basically story-oriented.

In my opinion, they should be more careful on the story, since it's the only reason some people play the games in the first place.

Kazoobie64 · Oct 21, 2008 12:21 AM

minredd wrote:

And guys, it's not just LoS. Tons of video games have plot holes. It's like fretting over how Mario grows from a mushroom or how Sonic wears shoes.

But those things aren't given second thoughts because the games never even go on the subject of it unless it's a joke. (Example: ever seen A Goofy Movie? One of the characters breaks the fourth wall and wonders why everyone wears gloves.) So it's one of those things that are just there, and from your understanding of it, it JUST HAPPENS in that universe.

These things even in exist in LoS. How can Spyro fly with such little wings and a huge head? Oh well, it's just there.

Cynder's jewelry would have been another, but from what you guys are telling me there's supposed to be an explanation for it; so now some of the audience becomes aware of the bizarre phenomenon, which should not happen.

Neotyguy40 · Oct 21, 2008 3:07 AM

Stormy wrote:

minredd wrote:
How are the snakes holding them in the centre of the arena? The snakes, after all, are only keeping Spyro and Cynder together, not holding them anywhere. Owell, The game might explain it.
It already WAS explained in the game. At the very first place you play in(most people have seen it, but I think you missed a lot of gameplay videos)there's a green chain-like thing coming off of the snakes and being attacked to this little totem/box/cylinder whatever. So that plot hole is resolved.
And guys, it's not just LoS. Tons of video games have plot holes. It's like fretting over how Mario grows from a mushroom or how Sonic wears shoes.
I see your point there, but it's a little different with TLoS because the games are basically story-oriented.
In my opinion, they should be more careful on the story, since it's the only reason some people play the games in the first place.

These plotholes are very small... What would the difference make if Cynder didn't wear her bands? Nothing... That's just it...

Who cares if Cynder has her jewls? Nothing different would happen.

And no, not everyone buys the games for the story. I bought ANB because it had dragons, melee, and platforming. I bought TEN because it was the same as ANB (although I thought the bosses would be different). And I will buy DotD because it has co-op, and flying.

After ETD, I never bought a Spyro game without seeing a couple reviews. I never heard of the storylines beforehand.

ratchet · Oct 21, 2008 10:06 AM

minredd wrote:

How are the snakes holding them in the centre of the arena? The snakes, after all, are only keeping Spyro and Cynder together, not holding them anywhere. Owell, The game might explain it.
It already WAS explained in the game. At the very first place you play in(most people have seen it, but I think you missed a lot of gameplay videos)there's a green chain-like thing coming off of the snakes and being attacked to this little totem/box/cylinder whatever. So that plot hole is resolved.
And guys, it's not just LoS. Tons of video games have plot holes. It's like fretting over how Mario grows from a mushroom or how Sonic wears shoes.

I guess i'll just have to wait until i see the cutscene!

Oh and why mario grows from a mushroom or why sonic wears shoes are not plotholes, as i've said a plothole is something in the story that doesn't make any sense, or maybe contradicts itself. Magic mushrooms obviously make the user grow bigger, and Sonic wears shoes because he doesn't want to hurt his feet when he runs

And no, not everyone buys the games for the story. I bought ANB because it had dragons, melee, and platforming. I bought TEN because it was the same as ANB (although I thought the bosses would be different). And I will buy DotD because it has co-op, and flying.

Most people bought TLOS for the story, or just because it was a Spyro game.

Stormy · Oct 21, 2008 5:34 PM

Neotyguy40 wrote:

Stormy wrote:
minredd wrote:
It already WAS explained in the game. At the very first place you play in(most people have seen it, but I think you missed a lot of gameplay videos)there's a green chain-like thing coming off of the snakes and being attacked to this little totem/box/cylinder whatever. So that plot hole is resolved.
And guys, it's not just LoS. Tons of video games have plot holes. It's like fretting over how Mario grows from a mushroom or how Sonic wears shoes.
I see your point there, but it's a little different with TLoS because the games are basically story-oriented.
In my opinion, they should be more careful on the story, since it's the only reason some people play the games in the first place.
These plotholes are very small... What would the difference make if Cynder didn't wear her bands? Nothing... That's just it...
Who cares if Cynder has her jewls? Nothing different would happen.

No, it's not a huge difference. I mean, it's just a video game. It just annoys some people because these things weren't very well thought out.

And no, not everyone buys the games for the story. I bought ANB because it had dragons, melee, and platforming. I bought TEN because it was the same as ANB (although I thought the bosses would be different). And I will buy DotD because it has co-op, and flying.
After ETD, I never bought a Spyro game without seeing a couple reviews. I never heard of the storylines beforehand.

I said "some people." Some. SOME people only play TLoS for the story. I in no way said all, and yes, I have heard people actually say that they play the games just for the story.

Gahh, if I had a dollar for every time someone took the word "some" to mean "everyone"....

Kazoobie64 · Oct 21, 2008 7:03 PM

Not to mention the creators of the game said it themselves that they want you to feel like you're "playing a movie" or something like that. Plot is a big thing with these games whether people play them for it or not.

ratchet · Oct 22, 2008 4:35 AM

Kazoobie64 wrote:

Not to mention the creators of the game said it themselves that they want you to feel like you're "playing a movie" or something like that. Plot is a big thing with these games whether people play them for it or not.

yeah, if a game is supposed to be a story based game, it should have a polished story with no real plotholes.

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