IGN Review on The Legend of Spyro: Dawn of the Dragon

Razz · Nov 12, 2008 8:32 PM

What bothers me greatly is that everyone seems to assume that cliches are always bad. They aren't. In fact, many of the cliches in LoS are what made me like it. The Epistler (of Anti-Shur'tugal fame) had a great quote about the whole "nothing new under the sun" thing. I shall have to find it and share.

Starscream · Nov 12, 2008 8:39 PM

Indiana Jones is from the 80's man, back then everything went...

And King Kong is from the freaking 1933!

And yes it is possible to crate a story without cliches or at least make them less obvious or just try then to work somehow....

When you crate a story you must make it look new, refreshing interesting which LOS failed to do since the whole story looks borrowed and already seen....

RedDragonX · Nov 12, 2008 8:45 PM

Try the King Kong made in 2005 and the Indiana Jones made in 2007 genius....take a look at those and tell me what you think...it is impossible to make a remake or something within the same genre without having a cliche..

and if you think you can create one then go for it...it's not very easy to do...and trying to cover up cliches usually doesn't end up working. The developers attempted to make an effective storyline that would draw the gamer into Spyro's world and Spyro's story..

Yes it was pretty mcuh just like Lord of the Rings...but I liked LotR...and I don't mind having elements of that in another story...I thought it looked better that way like Razz pointed out...but creating an effective story is very very difficult to do without relating to another...only difference is your destination and the characters.

Kazoobie64 · Nov 12, 2008 9:03 PM

Clichés aren't always bad but when you're basically predicting what happens next and when the story completely makes you think of something else the whole time, then it's poorly executed. There's also "trying too hard" moments that should not be showing the way it was. It also has to do with applying the clichés when it's not needed, and then you have your audience groaning because they can suddenly think of something way better that could have been done. For example, one of my friends, who I actually co-played Dawn of the Dragon with, is a very short person. She's never played the old Insomniac series, but she's seen me playing them. With other friends, when we talk about our heroes she usually brings up Spyro and mentions how he "kicks *** for short folks everywhere!" When she played DotD with me she was so dissappointed and a lot of times when Spyro had a close-up in a cutscene she would sigh or groan heavily. "Well gee! Now he's kicking *** because he was BORN SPECIAL and is some SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE with SPECIAL powers."

Also:

Razz wrote:

I think the biggest reason no one really wants to see the originals brought into the modern world is this: would you really want to play the Insomniac titles with the graphics and voice actors they have today? I know I wouldn't.

What exactly is wrong with those two today? If the guys in charge don't know how to hire the proper ones, that's their problem.

I just don't see any game that's even remotely resembling the Insomniac titles having a bone of dark epicness in them. The minute that starts to happen, you get AHT, or something that isn't Insomniac-styled in the slightest.

AHT was probably just the curse of people not knowing how to write to appeal to all masses. I have a feeling they played through the old games just once to see what they were dealing with. I'm sure if people were actually, you know, INTERESTED in reviving the Spyro franchise instead of milking it for its quick money they would have pulled it off just fine. Fan-games do better in that aspect most of the time.

And I must give the LoS team props for this one thing: their goal was to make a set of games that was like playing through a movie. With all the complaining, no one has noticed that they succeeded in their goal. Yes, the story is cliched, but what epic story/film isn't these days?

Lots of successful ones among the media, actually, and the clichés are usually minor nuisances that fade into the background over a bigger focus, it's not the case with LoS. If you like it, fine, but I can't like a story that just blatantly reeks of unoriginality and the passion for it doesn't show, topping it off with the people behind it being aware that that's probably the case and not doing anything to go through with the better potential. It insults me as an artist, writer, and fan of theatre so I'm sorry, but I can't put it aside and force myself to like it. Feeling this way, I don't consider it a "success."

Also, you guys, "epic" isn't always a good thing. People call Sonic 2006 "epic" as a sarcastic insult. Just letting you guys know.

RedDragonX · Nov 12, 2008 9:13 PM

Yes epic is not always a good thing. I'm sure the developers more then knew that when they created the new storyline for the game.

The series as a whole would not cater to the fans of the original series...that was verified by Chris and he knew that a good portion of them would not be satisfied with the game.

Yes you don't need a nice story to get involved with a game...not everybody does...I personally don't care either way...but I like the story because I do like finding out just what happens to the interesting characters that they introduce.

That was the formula that hey dicided to go with in this series...did it work? I guess half no and half yes. They failed miserably in some areas and were successful in others. If people like your friend can relate to the characters then that's great....I also liked the old Spyro because I liked his cocky attitude and quick humor in the situations....and this franchise obviously doesn't cater to her...

They did their best to work with a new formula...and I don't know if they thought it was successful or not...but it has drawn a good deal of fans...old and new....their will always be those insulted or thinking that the series was a mockery of such efforts before...but the entire thing was guessing game from the beginning..

I at least give them the benefit of the doubt for trying to continue the series after the miserabl showing from the previous two games....mostly ETD...and after many studios attempted to butcher it.....they certainly did a better job then those before them...what they do in the future has yet to be seen....but I don't think it will be terrible.

CynderRules · Nov 12, 2008 9:16 PM

okay, I'm getting sick of people complaining about the cliches. The TLoS games follow the Heroic Quest archetype. As well as thousands, most possibly millions of other books/movies/games.

There is not a single book/movie/game out there today that doesn't have cliches. Get over it.

RedDragonX · Nov 12, 2008 9:59 PM

Short and simple...thank god.

Kazoobie64 · Nov 12, 2008 10:16 PM

CynderRules wrote:

okay, I'm getting sick of people complaining about the cliches. The TLoS games follow the Heroic Quest archetype. As well as thousands, most possibly millions of other books/movies/games.
There is not a single book/movie/game out there today that doesn't have cliches. Get over it.

So of course this logic means that everything that uses it is a masterpiece that's not dull, poorly researched and tired-out at all. Not only that, but because everyone does it, it's perfectly ok that another did it too!

RedDragonX · Nov 12, 2008 10:20 PM

Well I don't know if that was what she was insinuating...but good point.

Some things are overused....it's hard to get games that are not repetative now..

Kazoobie64 · Nov 12, 2008 10:34 PM

I understand that it's a bit difficult for someone to find their place with their work in the world. I know, because I have a lot of graduate friends that struggle with their publishing, (And I know that for my book and comic book-writing friends, the publishers have straight-out said "this is too much like [insert existing work here]" sometimes) both online and offline, so they're forced to work small-time until they can find said place, and the competition is still as rough as ever. Usually it takes a lot of luck for this if you don't have connections. For example, Dave Kelly was your average webcomic artist who actually made lots of fun comics, but was never actually that noticed. Until David and Goliath ripped off one of his pieces on a painting and got media attention because David and Goliath are common in the art theft conspirancy.

Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic, but the point is, I know some people will make similarities in their works without their own knowledge. I've done it too, often with characters, which cause me to re-design them over and over again until the critics approve on that aspect. Sometimes it happens because you are influenced by another work and it starts to show way too blatantly, which is something that commonly needs fixing. However, these things are of a different mind, and the people look to fix them and put effort into their work. Sometimes I can't be too harsh on things when they first start out because they can gradually evolve to fix their mistakes, but when someone deliberately KNOWS their story is too similar to another and don't make an effort to be original, it really grates on my nerves. Especially when they use their budget to hire celebrity voice acting to glorify their game. But I suppose this was all for the money and not the passion anyway so I suppose I should just shake my head like with everything else and go "oh, society."

RedDragonX · Nov 12, 2008 10:48 PM

Well how are we suppose to know that they wanted the story to be just like others. I understand completely what you are saying...but YOU did not take part in developing the game. None of us did...we are just the fans who are expecting the developers to bring pride and entertainment into the series....did they know that they were doing so...perhaps...perhaps not.....you said that once in awhile you will do that with your characters....and you pride yourself in going over and over them again until the fit into your stories better or such and such....

This game was clearly rushed...and by the way it looks you are correct....I get the feeling that as a whole they did not truly care for the overall context and face of the franchise. This has been a problem ever since the original Spyro series came to a close. Ever since Insomniac let go of the series things have not gone so well. Krome picked up the idea and released a couple of games that introduced the new formula of using the story to drive the gameplay...and that does work for some players...but not all who truly remember Spyro as what it once was.

EL picked up this project right after Krome finished with TEN...all of two and half years ago....so this was not a real in depth project...nor were the two games before....to make something truly creative and mind blowing graphics wise and story wise would take years of planning. I'm not sure how long the original game took to develop...but sequals came pretty quickly after it's success....with a formula that worked in a very new consul generation.

Perhaps they didn't care about the overall quality of the character or the series as a whole....but I'm pretty sure that some of them did. Chris was part of the story writting and actor direction...both of which could have been done much much better...so I blame him heavily for the quality of story..even though the story wasn't all that bad.

Very repetative in some areas? Yes it was....but they kept the series running when it could have fallen right off the map. The good thing right now is that no Spyro games are being planned for anytime soon...so perhaps this go they will work on the overall quality that the series so desperatly needs.....a developer that truly cares about the pride of the franchise....but thanks go out for the attempts by Krome and EL these last three years.

Stormy · Nov 12, 2008 11:00 PM

CynderRules wrote:

okay, I'm getting sick of people complaining about the cliches. The TLoS games follow the Heroic Quest archetype. As well as thousands, most possibly millions of other books/movies/games.
There is not a single book/movie/game out there today that doesn't have cliches. Get over it.

Yeah, but the problem is when it becomes so cliche that literally everyone on the fansites can predict the so-called "plot twists" and the ending.

CynderRules · Nov 12, 2008 11:01 PM

Kazoobie64 wrote:

CynderRules wrote:
okay, I'm getting sick of people complaining about the cliches. The TLoS games follow the Heroic Quest archetype. As well as thousands, most possibly millions of other books/movies/games.
There is not a single book/movie/game out there today that doesn't have cliches. Get over it.
So of course this logic means that everything that uses it is a masterpiece that's not dull, poorly researched and tired-out at all. Not only that, but because everyone does it, it's perfectly ok that another did it too!

no, all I'm saying is that it IS present. And that even though the story could have had improvement, people are avoiding it like the plague just because it has cliches in it!

Stormy · Nov 12, 2008 11:07 PM

CynderRules wrote:

Kazoobie64 wrote:
CynderRules wrote:
okay, I'm getting sick of people complaining about the cliches. The TLoS games follow the Heroic Quest archetype. As well as thousands, most possibly millions of other books/movies/games.
There is not a single book/movie/game out there today that doesn't have cliches. Get over it.
So of course this logic means that everything that uses it is a masterpiece that's not dull, poorly researched and tired-out at all. Not only that, but because everyone does it, it's perfectly ok that another did it too!
no, all I'm saying is that it IS present. And that even though the story could have had improvement, people are avoiding it like the plague just because it has cliches in it!

I don't think that's necessarily the reason. There could be several more logical explanations to why everyone doesn't absolutely love TLoS.

Maybe they don't like the gameplay. Lots of people complained about the gameplay, including people who love the story.

Maybe they didn't care that the story was cliche, but they did care that it was unbearably predictable.

RedDragonX · Nov 12, 2008 11:08 PM

Well if that's what the fans were expecting then don't get the game. You don't have to waste your money on the game if the wonderful cliches are gonna bother you so much.

The one thing that worked for the old series was the fact that before them nobody ever really did something that involved a dragon like that...but the plot's were pretty simple...if any plot at all...most of it was the same over and over....Some bad guy shows up....fight your way to him....beat him....the end.......the LOS series did the same thing except it spanned 3 different games...with Malefor being the final target in mind.

You can't make something without some elements of it being similer to something out there...then again I don't know why we're still arguing over this. The topic was on the review mentioned before...and just how acurate it is to us gamers..the cliche issue should be another catagory.

Kazoobie64 · Nov 13, 2008 1:09 AM

XRedDragonX wrote:

Well how are we suppose to know that they wanted the story to be just like others. I understand completely what you are saying...but YOU did not take part in developing the game.

But it's written right on their foreheads because they know that the things they imitated exist. They mentioned some of the things that they were "inspired" by and then the game was very similar to those things beyond an inspiration.

but they kept the series running when it could have fallen right off the map.

Please note that some people don't necessarily consider this a good thing. Also, they could have kept it dead for a long time and if someone was interested enough, it could have possibly been picked up years later. It rarely happens, but it does happen because there is no such thing as a "dead series." As you can see, old cartoons are picked up for movies loads of years later. I don't see what's the big rush.

RedDragonX · Nov 13, 2008 3:33 AM

To them there is always a rush as long as their is a profit to be made from it. You are correct that "some" series have been resurected years later....in movies and such.

With the Spyro games however...I don't think they would have been able to successfully revive it like they wanted to. They wanted to try something different..and they did....now the effects are felt...was the experiment a success or not...

Personally now that I look at it all they have managed to do is divide the fanbase pretty much....and it's gonna be hard for them to produce anything that will ever be considered as good as the first.

As for the things on their foreheads...heck you could say that for just about anything developed nowadays...you're gonna blame them either way because that's just how you feel about it. All I know is that WE personally were not there...so WE will never know how they really felt about it.

It's over and done with now...the series is pretty much divided to the point that we will always be contradicting each other. All I know is that finding a developer that will care enough to really really put effort into the game is gonna be hard.....so I will always give credit to those who at least make the attempt.

Disappointing yes....but they did spend 4 to 5 years trying to make it work...and that's more effort then most would bother putting into it.

ratchet · Nov 13, 2008 10:40 AM

I'm not really saying that the TLOS story is bad or anything when i say it's cliche, i'm mainly saying that the TLOS story is not as good as everyone thinks it is, and is overrated.
I mean TLOS did have a simple plot too, it was just over exadurated by Poetry and cliched scenes which made it seem "in depth".
Also, TLOS dragged there story out for a lot longer, which gave it suspense.

Thundersoul · Nov 13, 2008 12:16 PM

XRedDragonX wrote:

To them there is always a rush as long as their is a profit to be made from it. You are correct that "some" series have been resurected years later....in movies and such.
With the Spyro games however...I don't think they would have been able to successfully revive it like they wanted to. They wanted to try something different..and they did....now the effects are felt...was the experiment a success or not...
Personally now that I look at it all they have managed to do is divide the fanbase pretty much....and it's gonna be hard for them to produce anything that will ever be considered as good as the first.
As for the things on their foreheads...heck you could say that for just about anything developed nowadays...you're gonna blame them either way because that's just how you feel about it. All I know is that WE personally were not there...so WE will never know how they really felt about it.
It's over and done with now...the series is pretty much divided to the point that we will always be contradicting each other. All I know is that finding a developer that will care enough to really really put effort into the game is gonna be hard.....so I will always give credit to those who at least make the attempt.
Disappointing yes....but they did spend 4 to 5 years trying to make it work...and that's more effort then most would bother putting into it.

I agree, I've seen alot of games with great Ideas sink too the bottom (like Dungeon Keeper series)

Razz · Nov 13, 2008 6:28 PM

Okay, I found those quotes from the Epistler. He is speaking of books, but what he says applies to stories told in any form, games included.

On Originality
True originality does not exist.
This is a sweeping statement which many people – including writers – have made and created instant controversy with. The Epistler thought long and hard about it and eventually decided that it was both true and untrue.
Interpreted at its most superficial level, the statement is false. If one reads it to mean that it is impossible to create a work which is distinct, then it is absolute nonsense. Anyone who truly believes this should not be allowed to write novels. Ever. But at a deeper level, it is true. If by “true originality” one means that every story has something in common with every other story, then, no, true originality does not exist. Every story ever written is related to every other story ever written at a fundamental, unchangeable level. No matter how hard you may strive to make your work completely different from everything else, others will always find ways to compare it to something else. All stories have one thing in common: they are stories. If one were to take out the things that make a story – plot and character are the most fundamental – there would be nothing left but a lot of words strung together. And, although there is nothing wrong at all with experimentation and thinking outside the box, most writers are disinclined to create works that other people will not want to read, because a story not read is completely worthless.
In literature, much emphasis is placed on experimental works such as, for example, the French novelette called The Malady of Death, which goes so far into the realm of plotlessness and characterlessness that it is virtually incomprehensible. The Malady of Death is a smoothly written and beautiful work, but very few people would be able to relate to it, even though they may feel sophisticated and intellectual for having read it.
What people want – the dirty little secret that lurks at the bottom of literary study – what people truly want from stories is very simple: entertainment. People read stories because it’s fun. The human brain does not take kindly to boredom. Stimulation is what it craves. In other words, entertainment. Stories are a way to make life interesting, a way to escape from reality and a way to define the world and create some kind of order out of chaos and confusion.
The best stories, the ones that provide the entertainment people want, are the ones that are easy to relate to, and hence, in the end, they must have characters and situations the reader finds familiar in some way, and there must be something going on in order to maintain the reader’s interest – in other words, a plot. There is little point in writing a novel if nobody can relate to it. The Epistler has travelled in academic circles and has been forced to listen to a large amount of nonsense about style, trend, literary theory and the importance of showing the world how clever you are by writing a 60-page novel wherein two people do nothing but screw and talk about nothing, and the conclusion he has reached is as follows: pull your head in and just write a good story.
So. The point of this rather longwinded discussion is that, no, in the end the true essence of originality does not exist because at the end of the day stories remain stories and cannot escape from what lies at the heart of their nature and which they all have in common.
But this in no way implies that each story should not strive to be unique.
A story is not just a collection of words. It is, at bottom, an expression of something pure that lies inside every person. Everyone has at least one story in them. And this story comes from them. Not from anyone else. There will inevitably be influences from elsewhere in any given work, but the driving force behind the story comes from inside its writer’s soul. A writer writes to express something. It can be anything, but this something is always something they have felt and been profoundly affected by. This is what every true novel has at its heart. It may not be well-expressed, it may be obscure, it may be false or distasteful, or even boring, but it is always there.

RedDragonX · Nov 13, 2008 8:08 PM

Wow....very interesting. Hmmm.....that works.

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